Immigrazione islamica... i timori sono più che giustificati

[Dario]

In Origine Postato da tigermen
Dario te non sai la storia, studia il mio post sull'islamizzazione delle terre cristiane qui:http://www.politicaonline.net/forum/...0&pagenumber=2

L'articolo che tu posti parla della islamizzazione dopo il 1400, un bel pò dopo le crociate (e anche la fonte è un pò... sospetta).

Se tu invece vai all'inizio a guardarti le cartine di Felix, vedrai una storia, prima dell'anno 1000, un pochino... diversa. Quali sarebbero quelle che tu chiami "le terre cristiane" in quella prima cartina?

[tigermen]

In Origine Postato da Dario
L'articolo che tu posti parla della islamizzazione dopo il 1400, un bel pò dopo le crociate (e anche la fonte è un pò... sospetta).

Se tu invece vai all'inizio a guardarti le cartine di Felix, vedrai una storia, prima dell'anno 1000, un pochino... diversa. Quali sarebbero quelle che tu chiami "le terre cristiane" in quella prima cartina?

Quibndi riconosci anche da te che l'islamizazione di quelle tere è avvenuta in tempi non antichissimi, dove prima vie era il Cristianesimo; un sito interessante per capire la situazione preislamica è:

http://www.aramaic-dem-org

[Dario]

In Origine Postato da tigermen
Quibndi riconosci anche da te che l'islamizazione di quelle tere è avvenuta in tempi non antichissimi, dove prima vie era il Cristianesimo; un sito interessante per capire la situazione preislamica è:

http://www.aramaic-dem-org

Al contrario. Io sostengo che quelle terre erano state conquistate dagli arabi nel 600, quando la cristianizzazione era ancora assai limitata.

Correggo il tuo Url:
http://www.aramaic-dem.org

che però non dice niente di nuovo.

[tigermen]

In Origine Postato da Dario
Al contrario. Io sostengo che quelle terre erano state conquistate dagli arabi nel 600, quando la cristianizzazione era ancora assai limitata.

Correggo il tuo Url:
http://www.aramaic-dem.org

che però non dice niente di nuovo.

Questo può essere vero parzialmente per l'arabia o la giordania ma non so'come fai a ritinere l'Anatolia (Alias Turchia) o la Palestina sua provincia una regione a limitata presenza Cristiana!!!! Comunque sul sito che ho segnalato viene messo in evidenza che in tuitte le terre mediorientali vi erano comunità Cristiane, la cui confessione era maggioritaria!!

[Dario]

In Origine Postato da tigermen
Questo può essere vero parzialmente per l'arabia o la giordania ma non so'come fai a ritinere l'Anatolia (Alias Turchia) o la Palestina sua provincia una regione a limitata presenza Cristiana!!!! Comunque sul sito che ho segnalato viene messo in evidenza che in tuitte le terre mediorientali vi erano comunità Cristiane, la cui confessione era maggioritaria!!

Se riuscissimo a metterci d'accordo su quale periodo prendere in considerazione, forse riusciremmo a capirci meglio.

In Origine Postato da Dario
Non dare retta a Western. Quello dice le cose per approfittare della tua ingenuità e farti fare cattive figure.

perchè ingenuo?perchè non la pensa come te?

P.S.: Avete mai sentito parlare degli arabi?

io si , tu non so...
di quali arabi stai parlando poi?dei nabatei?dei ghassanidi?
sai , in quellìepoca non c'era una sola tribù di bedduini , ce n'erano tante , alcune "pagane" , altre cristiane . . .

P.S.2.: Avete mai visto un mappamondo con la situazione degli anni 1000?

ma con chi credi di stare a parlare!?

guarda Dario che all'avvento dell'islam , nel VII° secolo , i missionari avevano già converito l'Etiopia , il medioriente , il mediterraneo , e fatto proseliti pure in India , Persia , Tibet , Cina e Taiwan con le missioni dei Nestoriani.

cosi , giusto per avere un riferimento...

[tigermen]

Dal maggior esperto mondiale sulle minoranze mediorientali: Walid Phares:

"ARAB" CHRISTIANS: AN INTRODUCTION


By: Dr. Walid Phares


For years, the term "Arab Christians" was used to categorize the Christians in the Middle East. However, the concept instead of being precisely defined was intellectually misused and politically abused. Both Arab regimes and "Arabists" in the West attempted to libel all Christians living under the sovereignty of Arab states, as "Arab Christians."

This denial of identity of millions of indigenous non-Arab nations can be equated to an organized ethnic cleansing on a politico-cultural level. Similarly to the Turkish attempts to eradicate the ethnic identity of the Kurds, whom they call "Mountain Turks," and the Assyrians, whom they define as "Semitic Turks."

Arab-Islamic regimes in the region assert that all those Christians who live within the confines of "Arab borders" are "Arab." With Arab nationalism at its peak, and "Arabist" circles at the apex of their political influence in the West, the pre-Arab ethnicities of the Middle East became the real underdogs of the region. The Arab Israeli conflict increased their crisis. Not only the non-Arab ethnicities, particularly the non-Moslem ones, were denied their basic rights, stripped from their ancestral lands, but they were pressured to participate in the general "war effort" conducted by the Arab regimes against a non-Arab nation, i.e. the Jews of Israel.

The gestalt of global Arab strategy in the region was to pit non-Arabs against other non-Arabs, after demonizing those who have formed their national state Israel, and fragmented those who weren't able to implement self determination. The Christians in the Middle East are not just a religious group, nor do they form one single community. The overwhelming majority of the Christians in the region are ethnically non-Arab, and their major common characteristic is their subjection to Arab colonialism and Islamic oppression for thirteen centuries. The Christians in the Middle East are not, as it was portrayed by the Arab regimes and many in the West, the followers of Christian faith among the Arab ethnic group. "Arab Christians" exist in few spots in the region, but they are a minuscule minority within the world of Middle Eastern Christianity.

Prior to the Arab Islamic invasion of the upper Middle East--the term invasion is crucial--most of the peoples of the region, with the exception of the ancient Israelites, were Christianized: Copts in Egypt, Assyro-Chaldeans in Mesopotamia, Nubian Africans in Sudan, Armenians in Asia Minor, Phoenicians (Arameans, Canaanites, Amorites) in Syria, and Lebanon. With the dispersion of the Jews by the Romans, limited number of Christians moved to Palestine from the north and the East. In Arabia, the majority was pagan, a large segment of Arab tribes converted to Christianity, and after the dismantlement of ancient Israel, the number of Jewish centers increased in the Peninsula. Therefore, prior to the Arab Islamic Conquest, the upper Middle East was not Arab, its overwhelming majority was Christian, and many Arabs in the Peninsula were Christians. These are the "Arab Christians."

Since the 7th century the geo-political landscape of the region changed dramatically. The Arab Islamic armies occupied the upper Middle East, the new order implemented an Arabization and an Islamization of the conquered people. The majority of the inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Syria, Egypt, and Nubia, shifted to Arab Moslem. Numerically the native pre-Arab nations were reduced, and politically suppressed. The defeat, Arabization, and Islamization of the pre-Arab cultures, occurred during the dispersion of the Jews. The pre-Arab ethnicities, most of which were Christians, shrunk to enclaves, or to social categories. By the beginning of the twentieth century, the non-Arab Middle Eastern nations reasserted their historic national claims in many areas of their ancestral lands, which they never left. The Assyrians reclaimed their rights in northern Iraq, and north East Syria. The Lebanese Christians reaffirmed their identity in Mount Lebanon; the Copts attempted to reform in upper Egypt, and the Afro-Nubians called for self determination in southern Sudan. The historic national rights of these native nations were met with radical rejection by the established Arab regimes. Ethnic conflicts exploded in Sudan and Lebanon, while ethnic oppression was implemented in northern Iraq and Egypt. The political suppression of minor Christian communities was also applied in Syria and north Africa.

What happened to the "Arab Christians?" At the onset of Islam, all of the Arab Christian tribes were military defeated or subdued. Numbers of them converted to Islam for socio-political reasons. When the Arab Islamic armies conquered the upper Middle East, the "Christian Arabs" were erased from Arabia, their Churches destroyed or converted to Mosques. Only few clans survived in southern Iraq, southern Syria, and mainly in north west Arabia -which became Trans-Jordan a few centuries later. After the conquest, some of these Arab Christian clans emigrated to Palestine moving in from the East. They joined the non-Arab Christians who were present in Palestine after the Jewish dispersion, and seven centuries before the Arab invasion. There are two types of Christians in Palestine, and later on within the state of Israel. The non-Arab Middle Eastern Christians, and Arabs who are Christians. The largest Christian nation are the Copts, who number about 12 million. The Egyptian government recognize only 2.5 million. The most concentrated and socially organized nation are the Lebanese Christians (mostly Maronites) who number 1.5 million in Lebanon and about seven million in the diaspora. The Assyro-Chaldeans of Iraq are about 1 million in Mesopotamia, and one million in the diaspora. The Christians of Syria are about a million. Non-Arab Syriacs (Arameans), Arabized Syriacs, and Arab Christians (mostly Orthodox), in addition to Armenians. In southern Sudan the African ethnic nationality is about seven million, Christians and Animists. There are small Christian communities in Iran and Turkey. There are no Saudi or Kuwaiti Christian. The Christian nations living within the confines of Arab states are about twenty million! So who are the "Arab Christians" to whom Arab regimes and Arabists in the West refer? First, they are not recognized as distinct ethnic identities, but rather as segments from the wide "Arab nation" who are "of Christian faith." This indicates the non- readiness of these regimes and their dominant ideologies to recognize the later's fundamental, political rights, and subsequently their rights to "national lands." Second, the Arab-Arabist duo do not admit the real numeric size of these so-called "Arab Christians." In Egypt they are recognized as 2.5 million, in Iraq, 250,000, in Sudan, 2 million, in Syria, 500,000, and in Lebanon, 25% of the population! Not only have the Arab dominant powers subverted the numbers, but they have attempted to subvert the identities of all pre-Arab nationalities in the region, including those who converted to Islam, such as the Berbers of north Africa, and the Kurds.

Where are the real "Arab Christians?" They are dispersed between Jordan, Syria, Israel, and the Palestinian autonomous territories. They are the remnants of the Arab Christian clans who escaped Islamization and more recently the end product of Evangelization. They are estimated to be 200,000 in Syria, a hundred thousand in Jordan and an equal number or more among the Palestinian-Arab populations, including within the Arab--Israeli population. The Christians in Israel are composed of Arabs, Arabized, non-Arabs, and few non-Middle Eastern. Although Arabs and Arabized are the majority (around 70%) the non-Arabs who are the descendants of pre-Arabs are in high numbers. Among them are the Maronites, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Syriacs, and Armenians. Ironically many in Israel are not familiar with the existence of non-Arab Christians in their country. This misperception led many to believe that all Christians in the Middle East are "Arabs," and as anti-Israel, as the Arab mainstream in the region. Most of the Israelis, as do most of the Western public opinion simply do not know that there are other "non-Arab" nations in the region, also seeking the establishment of their independent homelands. Many in Israel and the West perceive the Christians of the region as represented by Hanan Ashrawi, George Habash, or Michel Aflaq. Whereas the majority of the Christian nations do not recognize themselves as Arabs. Their causes are not reported, their present or past leaders such as John Garang, Ibrahim Hilal, Bashir Gemayel, Mar Shimun, and others are marginalized. Even the mini-community of Christian Arabs is not at ease with its ethnic brethren. As a result of the surge of Islamic fundamentalism, all the Christians in the Middle East realize that they travel in the same boat. From the pogroms of Copts in Egypt, the ethnic cleansing of South Sudanese, the oppression of Lebanese Christians, to forced Arabization of the Syro-Mesopotamian Christians, the 20 million non-Arab Christians are systematically targeted. The 0.6 million Arab Christians, including those living within the Jewish state are experiencing one of their most severe choices: Surrender to Islamization, or join the pan-Middle East Christian boat, as a way to survive

and maintain their spiritual identity.




Prof. Walid Phares :

Walid Phares is professor of political science and international relations at Florida Atlantic University. His numerous books in Arabic, French and English include: The Background of the Islamic Khomeini Revolution in Iran, Democratic Dialogue and Pluralism in Lebanon (in Arabic) and The Christian People of Lebanon: Thirteen Centuries of Struggle and Lebanese Christian Nationalism: The Rise and Fall of an Ethnic Resistance (in English). He has also published articles in the United States and abroad in three languages in such journals as Global Affairs, Journal of South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies, Middle East Quarterly and Panorama de l'Actualite. Prof. Phares is a well-respected authority on Lebanon, the Lebanese Christian community and the Middle East.

[ITALIANO (POL)]

Gli immigrati sono un problema: SE NE DEVONO ANDARE punto e basta!
Con il loro fanatismo, con la loro intolleranza, arriveremo ad una vera e propria guerra civile...ci sono troppi odi secolari, troppe differenze per sperare che essi si integrano! Loro non vogliono integrarsi e questo è sotto l'occhio di tutti e inutili fare finta di niente....

[Cavaliere (POL)]

In Origine Postato da ITALIANO
Gli immigrati sono un problema: SE NE DEVONO ANDARE punto e basta!
Con il loro fanatismo, con la loro intolleranza, arriveremo ad una vera e propria guerra civile...ci sono troppi odi secolari, troppe differenze per sperare che essi si integrano! Loro non vogliono integrarsi e questo è sotto l'occhio di tutti e inutili fare finta di niente....

Quoto totalmente

[Aryan]

In Origine Postato da ITALIANO
Gli immigrati sono un problema: SE NE DEVONO ANDARE punto e basta!
Con il loro fanatismo, con la loro intolleranza, arriveremo ad una vera e propria guerra civile...ci sono troppi odi secolari, troppe differenze per sperare che essi si integrano! Loro non vogliono integrarsi e questo è sotto l'occhio di tutti e inutili fare finta di niente....

l'unica cosa ragionevole da fare con gli immigrati-invasori è rimpatriarli con le buone ....o con le cattive.

integrazione? un mito buonista che solo gli idioti credono.....