ennesimo topic antiAZ su anet

[AZJumbo]

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...ain/1765855/4/

eccolo qui in tutto il suo splendore, un topic dove menti eccelse si scambiano opinioni di alto contenuto.
Non indicato per persono con QI maggiore a 30 punti.

ciao

[Mati777]

Questo BestWestern mi sta proprio sulle...

[Ludwig_J]

Beh certo, perchè non buttare i nostri soldi per dare pochi mesi di ossigeno ad AZ! (anzi ai sui poveri dirigenti, sottopagati e schiavizzati)

Ma fatemi il favore, la gente di A.net ha ragione! AZ doveva chiudere come SR e SN. Punto.
Possiamo starcela a raccontare di quanto fosse bella e grande e prestigiosa un tempo. Ma oggi come oggi fa SCHIFO. Così come tante cose in questo nostro bel paese. Ad ogni modo non c'è problema, invece di lavorare seriamente possiamo incolpare la stampa straniera e gli altri membri dell'UE di razzismo. Quello di Arcore è diventato bravissimo...

Siamo solo capaci di piangerci addosso. Di fronte a tutta Europa siamo RIDICOLI.


Ludwig_J

[Mr AZ Man]

Si sono d'accordo...questo BestWestern e' propio un idiota irlandese...non solo parla male di AZ, ma e' razzista...parla sempre male dell'italia and degli italiani...e' proprio uno vero str@nzo!!!

Se poi andate sull'altro forum www.airwise.com ce un altro scemo che si chiama Weigh Anchor che fa commenti negativi...andate sul threa AZ and poi AZ NEWS AND DESTINATIONS...

Purtroppo ce gente che gli da fastidio che AZ forse finalmente sta andando avanti...

[Paxromana]

Si. Ma c'è anche una magnifica risposta appena arrivata che ci posto subito per non farvi faticare.

Username: Baw716
From United States, joined Nov 2003, 127 posts, RR: 8
Reply: 13
Posted Wed Oct 6 2004 09:47:42 UTC+1 and read 2 times:
I know I am going to open Pandora's box with this post, but I think this has to be said. I am hearing stuff on this thread that are really bashing Alitalia and I frankly don't believe that what is being said is particularly accurate or fair.

It is time to really examine the reasons behind why some of the countries in the EU are vehemently opposed to the Italians helping Alitalia. There are some points that need to be raised and I am going to do so with this post, in the hope that it will stimulate some good discussion of this issue:

I read Ken777s post with great interest, because I agree with him. I want to come back to his points in a moment...

First, about the EU. What is the EU? Really? Was the idea behind the EU that it would speak with one voice, act as one common union with a common currency, provide for free trade and travel for its citizens between member countries and speak as one voice around the world? While this is a rather utopian goal and a laudable one as well, it seems that the member states in the EU are having more difficulties integreating themselves; especially those member nations who are wealthy and those who are not as well off.

Well, there are a number of problems in Europe that we do not face in America. We have other kinds of problems you don't really want, trust me. You do not have a central government with any teeth or power that is recognized amongst its member nations. Not all of your members participate in the Euro, the Brits being the largest country in Europe that does not. The member nations are as diverse culturally, economically and socially that doing business in Europe is difficult at best, since the different personalities have a unique way of thinking that is not yet aligned.

(NOTE: To anyone in the EU, I would appreciate a reply, but I ask that if you disagree with my position, please explain why you feel this way and not just say I am an idiot for expressing my position.)

Now, let us deal with politics, since this is what is driving this entire issue regarding Alitalia.

The Italian government owns some 62% of AZ, and under the current agreement, is attempting to reduce that stake to 50% in order to meet the criteria for the loans. There are those in the EU, notably Belgium and the UK, who are crying foul that this is government intervention in the airline industry of Europe and that the EU should step in and stop it.

This argument seems a little self serving. Here is part of the reason why: If the EU is going to exert its power over the entire EU, then the EU must have the power given to them by the member states to act as the sole entity with regard to aviation in Europe. This is something that no country wishes to do. Why?

Lets look at the situation with the Brits: The USA and Britain have been trying to negotiate a new bilateral treaty for the past 20 years that I can remember. The sticking point is this: The UK will not allow more than two US carriers to operate into Heathrow, and at that point, limit the number of slots and seats allocated to these US airlines flying to Heathrow. On the USA side, the US has not permitted BA to increase the number of seats to the USA, as it wants to carry passengers between two points in the USA (cabotage). It is notable that VS is also interested in opening the contract, but they do not really care as much about how many slots the US carriers have because LHR is a slot controlled airport. VS just wants more access to US points. They have been getting them on an adhoc basis from the US government, but BA is getting zip because the British government is so adament about protecting BA at Heathrow.

Doesn't this smack a little of government protectionism of BA (which it previously owned)?

I can tell you with absolute certainty that the UK will never cede its rights to bilateral air transportation negotiations because it will hurt BA. For that matter, no country in the EU will give away their individual deals that they have made with the USA, because they are quite lucrative for the individual European carriers. This renders the EUs power over civil aviation somewhat limited. The EU has power over civil aviation that the governments have agreed to give them, but each has retained the right to negotiate its own bilateral airline agreements with the USA. Again, this smacks a little of protectionism on the part of each European country that has taken that position.

Now, let us look at the Italian situation. The situation at Alitalia has developed over a number of years because of serious mismanagement of the airline. When Cempella was running Alitalia, it actually made money for the first time in years. He was on track toward making AZ more competitive by building up the Malpensa hub, which is the only Italian airport in the north of Italy that can handle the amount of international air traffic necessary to support the business centers of Italy. Unfortunately, someone in Rome got themselves into a twist and started meddling in Alitalia's management and Cempella quit. Yes, Malpensa started out badly, but that was not Alitalia's mistake, but the airport authority which was owned by the city of Milan.

Over the course of the last five years, management ruled by self interest. This angered many employees, causing strikes, service deficiencies, etc. which caused a good many people, including some in Italy to start taking other airlines to protect their own interests because Alitalia was unreliable. This fact and the after effects of 9/11 caused AZ to lose buckets of money. The Italian government, faced with the possibility of having some 15,000 people out of work and losing face because it was losing its flag carrier had to get moving. Berlusconi is behind the current move to inject money into AZ, to allow Cimoni to get the carrier back into some kind of shape that it can become a real player in SkyTeam. However, it cannot do that without a major restructuring of the airline and that requires an injection of cash that it does not have. The Italian government, who represents the people of Italy are acting on their behalf to protect their airline (which the Italian people own....government=citizens).

Now here is the question: Why are the Italian government's actions any different that the British action to protect BA at Heathrow? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that BA's cost structure is such that it could not effectively compete in the North Atlantic market head to head with US carriers who are leaner. Protecting Heathrow for BA is tantamount to the same tactics that the Italian government is taking to buff up Alitalia, so it can align with Air France and become a competitive force in Europe.

BA does not want the Italian subsidy, because a stronger Air France/Alitalia would provide more competition for them. They are already in a fight with Star Alliance at Heathrow for European traffic and in some cases beyond traffic. With AZ/AF coming into the picture, the competitive situation would cause BA to lose money and it would then fall into the same situation as the other carriers who are competing for traffic across the North Atlantic.

So, here we have it: The Brits do not want the Italians to get their subsidy so AZ can fail. If AZ fails, then SkyTeam is weaker. This allows BA to capitalize on their situation at Heathrow to remain the number one carrier in Europe.
Sounds like protectionism to me.

If the EU really had the power, it would deny the subsidy to Alitalia, it would force open negotiations regarding Heathrow and other European airports and negotiate one open sky treaty for Europe. This will never happen. No one, especially the British are going to release their authority over their own sovereign rights to negotiate its own treaties. Neither is any other EU member. Where does that leave the EU in terms of aviation?

It leaves them with very little power, and if they have no power to negotiate treaties, I wonder what other issues are going to crop up that the member states will not permit the central government in Brussels to manage?

Now, to Ken777s point:
"Governments face decisions in this area on a lot of factors, including comparing the costs of providing support and the costs they would face if the airline was liquidated - dollar costs, personal costs, etc. Unfortunately there would be other businesses besides the airlines that would suffer, pay lower taxes, hire fewer people, etc.

I believe that a government has the right to make these decisions and I believe that the EU loses when they try to over ride those decisions. There have been some countries in the EU that made economic decisions that impacted their budgets in a manner that should result in major EU fines, but (like the airline decision in question) I doubt that there will be punitive actions"

Ken is right. The Italian government is making a decision on behalf of its people that says it is better to buff up Alitalia, get them on the right track (with the right management/labor relations) and keep people working that it is to have 15,000 people out of work (which in Italy is a BIG number) with no where to go to get work in the short term. That would cost the Italian government more than keeping Alitalia afloat, for certain.

So herein lies the true issue: If the Brits and the other northern Europeans are going to complain about the Italian government providing state aid to its airline, however it is structured, a loan, etc., and ask the EU to intervene, then they should be willing to open themselves up to allowing negotiations on an united European airline agreement with the USA. Isn't this fair? I suspect if you ask the other countries who have very liberal aviation agreements with the US, the answer would be NO! Again, they are protecting their own self interests.

If the Brits are not willing to budge on Heathrow, then the Italians should be able to throw $1B at Alitalia, in the spirit of protecting its own citizens interests. If the EU cannot exert influence over the Brits, then why should it pick on the Italians? Until the Europeans are completely willing to cede aviation en total to the EU, give them the power to negotiate aviation treaties, the power to regulate safety and commerce between member states, then the Brits have no business whining when one or two member states act in their own interest to protect their citizens.

I firmly support the idea of giving Alitalia a chance to succeed. There are many reasons why it should succeed that affect the whole of Europe, not just Italy itself. It is true enough that Alitalia needs a lot of fixing, but if Cimoni can get the unions to agree to concessions, then he has gone a long way toward proving that he may be the guy to get this done. He needs the money in order to achieve that.

Just a reminder: a) if there is anything factual that is incorrect, please point it out politely and if it materially affects the situation, I will acknowledge that and thank the source. b) if you slam me for what I am saying without having facts to back it up, then please, for everyone's sake, hold your tongue. We want productive exchange on this issue, not silly rhetoric.

thanks,
baw716


.....peccato per quel Cimoni!!!!!

[Mr AZ Man]

Grazie mille Paxromana!

Finally a fantastic post which is very objective and very true. BA / LH / AF have a HUGE blame for AZ's situation in particular the disaster of transfering LIN traffic to MXP - these airlines caused a big problem in MXP's development as a true hub for AZ.

A presto...

Mr AZ Man from Sydney!

[I-TIGI]

Hello AZ Man how are you? I'm gianfranco ("gcinco" in airwise)....I'm happy to see you here also!
So good news for AZ today..salute ! .-)

Ciaoe salutami your city!

[A319FLR]

Personalmente, non sono molto contento di sapere che molti altri soldi, provenienti dalle nostre tasche (e quindi anche le mie), vadano a finire nel gorgo Alitalia. Quante di queste manovre sono state fatte? Io ne ho le tasche ... vuote, quindi ormai è "salva" ora va venduta e chi s'è visto s'è visto.

Un conto è l'orgoglio italico, un'altra cosa è l'obiettività. Gli aiuti di stato sono stati dati sottoforma di mille balze. Ora però basta.

Ciao, Marco

[Mr AZ Man]

Ciao Gcinco!

Come stai? Airwise purtoppo sta diventando molto banale - hai letto il thread AZ? Ci sono quei due Weigh e Marwan che hanno propio rotto le...

Mandami un e-mail se hai tempo...

A presto...

[Ludwig_J]

In Origine postato da A319FLR
Personalmente, non sono molto contento di sapere che molti altri soldi, provenienti dalle nostre tasche (e quindi anche le mie), vadano a finire nel gorgo Alitalia. Quante di queste manovre sono state fatte? Io ne ho le tasche ... vuote, quindi ormai è "salva" ora va venduta e chi s'è visto s'è visto.

Un conto è l'orgoglio italico, un'altra cosa è l'obiettività. Gli aiuti di stato sono stati dati sottoforma di mille balze. Ora però basta.

Ciao, Marco

Bravissimo Marco, sono pienamente d'accordo con te.

Chi è senza peccato scagli la prima pietra. Attaccare le altre compagnie per la loro condotta sleale di certo non nobilita AZ.
Forse non ci rendiamo conto di quanti soldi si sono BUTTATI nel "gorgo AZ"...

In Origine postato da Mr AZ Man
BA / LH / AF have a HUGE blame for AZ's situation in particular the disaster of transfering LIN traffic to MXP - these airlines caused a big problem in MXP's development as a true hub for AZ.

Di chi sarebbe la colpa? Dei concorrenti che approfittano degli errori di management? Ma per favore... Se il comandante fa un errore nella navigazione va a picco lui... e tutta la nave.
Ah, scusate... dimenticavo: prendiamocela con gli stranieri!

Mah!
Ludwig_J