What Dutch people believes about Muslims - Lingua inglese.

[UgoDePayens]

Ho chiesto a un mio vecchio conoscente, un amico olandese che ha più o meno vent'anni, di iscriversi qui apposta per raccontarci cosa pensa degli ultimi accadimenti in Olanda.
Ho trovato alcune discussioni con lui molto costruttive, e anche se non è sicuramente di destra nelsenso che noi intendiamo, molte delle sue riflessioni rispecchiano le nostre.
Parla molto bene inglese ma sa soltanto qualche parola di italiano per la maggior parte insulti ) .
Trattatemelo bene!

[UgoDePayens]

Visti alcuni problemi di registrazione incontrati dall'amico Olandese di cui sopra, posto io il suo primo intervento.
Se qualcuno fosse così gentile da postare una traduzione in italiano migliore di quella che potrei produrre io, si faccia pure avanti.

First I would like to say, hello to you. And I hope my stuff won’t be to boring to read, or too hard to understand.

To start off, I think you will all know what happened in the Netherlands a few weeks ago, 2 November (11-2 alarm-number, what is it with these people and numbers?)
A very well known film-maker who said what he thought, and who wrote columns in newspapers. Most of the things he wrote and how he wrote, nearly everything, were to criticize and sometimes just to shock people. His favourite theme was (you can almost guess this yourselves): the Islam. He called Muslims “stupid goatfuckers” and generally disrespected the entire religion.
This wasn’t a practise many Dutch people agreed with, or disagreed. It was just ignored by the majority of the people. It was just seen as entertainment, rather than a serious political statement, although many felt (I’m speaking for myself too) it wasn’t all just saying bad things about the Islam. He told us a lot of Muslim wives were being beaten by their husbands. Imams preaching that (West) European societies are a threat to the Islam and we should die because we do not “believe”, preaching to hate gay-people, and a lot of other fundamentalist talk. Mainly things where we stand for in the Netherlands, moral values which we all respect and which make this country as it is today. But according to van Gogh Muslims hate us.

This summer a small movie by van Gogh was broadcasted on Dutch television, called submission. It tells a story about mistreated and beaten-up women. And they tell it is very common to do so as a Muslim. And a lot of Muslims where enraged with anger, how can someone taunt us like that, he cannot get away with this.
So van Gogh received a lot of threats that he would be killed, none were really taken serious by himself, nor the Dutch intelligence agency (AIVD). And 2nd of November 2004, van Gogh was slaughtered on the street, stabbed and shot in the head while he tried to get away.

This news quickly spread around the world, not just because he was killed, not just because he was well known, it was because a Muslim killed him. This was a terrorist-attack on our free society. Someone who used the right to freedom of speech was killed.
I told you a lot of people silently agreed with van Gogh in what he said and believed, but thought they wouldn’t do any harm to us. We believed them when they said “The Islam is a peaceful religion, we do not use violence or force at all, we condemn all who do”, at least the politicians did. No one saw the actual threat and no actions were taken.

This caused a lot of anger with (real) Dutch people. They kept thinking: “How can they hate us? we give them everything they want!”.
And shortly after 11/2 all over the Netherlands small actions against Muslims were taken. Mosques were set fire to and Islamic schools, and the other way around as a reaction to this Churches were attacked.
The main thought among the right-winged people, the more extreme ones is. If the politics do not act, we will do it ourselves. Just like they did when they killed van Gogh.

Now what is my point by telling you this? I was told that many in Italy think Muslims are by nature friendly people. And yes, this can be correct, but because they are so sensitive to what they are told by the Imams (their priests) they can be turned into Dutch-hating, or Italian-hating, murder machines. This might sound weird or stupid, but we are seeing this happening every day. Just ask a common Muslim on the street, and 99% will say they CAN UNDERSTAND why van Gogh was murdered. And this is not a small extremist group, this is nearly 1 million people talking.
I’m wondering what will happen next, everyone who talks about this subject in public (on tv or radio) will be threatened that he or she will be killed. There is a lot of hatred and suspicion between Muslims and Dutch people. It’s not strange to think we are getting close to a civil war.

Ruben

[Curioso]

Come al solito, non si distingue fra chi è moderato e chi invece è già estremista e ha armato la mano assassina o comunque l'ha aiutata o appoggiata.
Dubito che il 99% dei musulmani olandesi (o italiani) appoggi un omicidio per "vilipendio alla religione". Comunque prendo atto dell'opinione del tuo amico.

Sono invece certo che il 99% dei musulmani europei avrebbe largamente preferito che ciò non accadesse perchè rende più difficile la loro vita, già non facile in quanto ospiti di un paese straniero.

[roebie]

Ok, if I understand you correctly, you believe that nearly all muslims are good by nature. You believe them when they say they regret actions like these.

I believe being naive like this just makes things worse. These people think very different then we do. We think in a very liberal way. We have very different moral values. We act, react or not act by our values, by what we think is right morally speaking.
Muslims act by what the koran tells them, and this contains a lot of ideas which do not fit in a modern society like ours.

Just compare it to Catholics or Christians, who lived by the bible, but a few hundred years ago. There have been a lot of revolutions to construct the liberal society and standard of thinking we have today. And Muslims are behind a few hundred years, still living according to the koran, and they're rapidly ( most of them ) catching up with how they look towards their religion. And there are fundamentalists who do not want this 'revolution' and they try to stop it and turn it back. And yes, in some cases they're succesfull, which led to this murder, the showcase that they won't just lose without a 'fight'.

It's a struggle between old and new moral values. And sadly overhere in Holland it seems the far majority is turning their back to the liberal life, and is re-embracing the older habits.

What we need to do is to filter out those who have the fundamental ideas, throw them out, and to get more control on what is preached in mosque's, because that is where the 'shit' happens.

Just don't think letting them live their own lives, giving them all the freedom they need solves things, we've seen it here. The Netherlands is considered one of the most liberal thinking countries in the world, if not, THE most liberal. And just look where we are now.

[UgoDePayens]

In origine postato da roebie
Ok, if I understand you correctly, you believe that nearly all muslims are good by nature. You believe them when they say they regret actions like these.

I believe being naive like this just makes things worse. These people think very different then we do. We think in a very liberal way. We have very different moral values. We act, react or not act by our values, by what we think is right morally speaking.
Muslims act by what the koran tells them, and this contains a lot of ideas which do not fit in a modern society like ours.

Just compare it to Catholics or Christians, who lived by the bible, but a few hundred years ago. There have been a lot of revolutions to construct the liberal society and standard of thinking we have today. And Muslims are behind a few hundred years, still living according to the koran, and they're rapidly ( most of them ) catching up with how they look towards their religion. And there are fundamentalists who do not want this 'revolution' and they try to stop it and turn it back. And yes, in some cases they're succesfull, which led to this murder, the showcase that they won't just lose without a 'fight'.

It's a struggle between old and new moral values. And sadly overhere in Holland it seems the far majority is turning their back to the liberal life, and is re-embracing the older habits.

What we need to do is to filter out those who have the fundamental ideas, throw them out, and to get more control on what is preached in mosque's, because that is where the 'shit' happens.

Just don't think letting them live their own lives, giving them all the freedom they need solves things, we've seen it here. The Netherlands is considered one of the most liberal thinking countries in the world, if not, THE most liberal. And just look where we are now.

Ragazzi, vi presento Ruben

Nice to see you Rub! Welcome...

[roebie]

>_<


Tough times :P ( and cold )

[Curioso]

In origine postato da roebie
Ok, if I understand you correctly, you believe that nearly all muslims are good by nature. You believe them when they say they regret actions like these.

I believe being naive like this just makes things worse. These people think very different then we do. We think in a very liberal way. We have very different moral values. We act, react or not act by our values, by what we think is right morally speaking.
Muslims act by what the koran tells them, and this contains a lot of ideas which do not fit in a modern society like ours.

Just compare it to Catholics or Christians, who lived by the bible, but a few hundred years ago. There have been a lot of revolutions to construct the liberal society and standard of thinking we have today. And Muslims are behind a few hundred years, still living according to the koran, and they're rapidly ( most of them ) catching up with how they look towards their religion. And there are fundamentalists who do not want this 'revolution' and they try to stop it and turn it back. And yes, in some cases they're succesfull, which led to this murder, the showcase that they won't just lose without a 'fight'.

It's a struggle between old and new moral values. And sadly overhere in Holland it seems the far majority is turning their back to the liberal life, and is re-embracing the older habits.

What we need to do is to filter out those who have the fundamental ideas, throw them out, and to get more control on what is preached in mosque's, because that is where the 'shit' happens.

Just don't think letting them live their own lives, giving them all the freedom they need solves things, we've seen it here. The Netherlands is considered one of the most liberal thinking countries in the world, if not, THE most liberal. And just look where we are now.

Not really. I suppose you didn't get the correct meaning of what I wrote just above. No prblem, Italian is a pretty complicated language for us too.

I just believe they prefer to live in peace, especially when they live far from their own country. I mean, I don't know if they regret or not, but I am convinced 99% of them are worried about what happened to T. Van Gogh, because they are afraid this may affect negatively their life.
That's all.

[Curioso]

In origine postato da roebie
.................................................. .................................................M uslims act by what the koran tells them, and this contains a lot of ideas which do not fit in a modern society like ours.

Just compare it to Catholics or Christians, who lived by the bible, but a few hundred years ago. There have been a lot of revolutions to construct the liberal society and standard of thinking we have today. And Muslims are behind a few hundred years, still living according to the koran, and they're rapidly ( most of them ) catching up with how they look towards their religion. And there are fundamentalists who do not want this 'revolution' and they try to stop it and turn it back. And yes, in some cases they're succesfull, which led to this murder, the showcase that they won't just lose without a 'fight'.

It's a struggle between old and new moral values. And sadly overhere in Holland it seems the far majority is turning their back to the liberal life, and is re-embracing the older habits.

................................

Furthermore, in my opinion, Muslims act not much differently from us: they have to solve their own daily problems, such as working, looking after their children, etc. I think that most of them don't like to live in a place where they are seen as terrorists because of a minority of few mad guys.

Last, but not least, if I were you I would distinguish between fundamentalists (who are very few in Italy, as far as I know) and all the others, who just wish to live in peace in my country and in yours. If we are able to isolate fundamentalists, by laso asking for help to the others, we may succeed to keep peace and avoid any "struggle between old and new moral values" you mentioned above.

[roebie]

Yes, I know they're afraid what would happen. But it's nothing more than normal that Dutch are getting fed up with the hate they have against us.

I believe, and I know that if they would stand behind the Dutch, and mean REALLY stand behind them. To initiate some sort of anti-fundamentalism group to battle the hate-preaches etc. Show that you are really willing to pick up the western way of life, and keep the religion out of politics because these 2 have always, in the past and these days, been in conflict. Since politics nowadays tend to give people freedom to do what they want, and religion tends to take this freedom and tell them what to do etc.

[Curioso]

Sorry, I wrote "laso" instead of "also"