Bandiera Lombardo orientale (orobica)

[Imperium]

Qualcuno può postarmi su questa sezione la bandiera lombardo-orientale (ovvero quella orobica)?
Per intenderci è quella che c'è in miniatura sul sito www.padaniacity.com (in alto insieme alle altre bandierine), è quasi identica a quella di Venezia è solo che è su sfondo blu.
Grazie.

P.s: se qualcuno avesse anche delle informazioni su tale vessillo, sarei grato se le aggiungesse alla discussione.

[Der Wehrwolf]

[Der Wehrwolf]

Padanian Flag of Orobia

This flag on top is neither the actual flag of "Liga Veneta" (= Northern League Venetian section), nor the flag of the "Serenissimi" ("Serenisimi" in Venetian language), indipendentist movement from Veneto, who became famous in 1997 for having "conquered" for some hours the famous Bell-Tower of St. Mark in Venice.
Northern League reused the flag with the sword as the "Flag of Orobia" (= Eastern Lombardy, Provinces of Bergamo and Brescia, which were once dominated by the "Serenisima") where people speak a "dialect" quite different from Western Lombardy (or "Insubria") and hardly understandable for other people: in Italian, when we hear a strange word or phrase, we may say "Che è, bergamasco?" (= What is this? Bergamo idiom?). You can see a small gif at <www.padaniacity.com>. I daresay that's the top flag modified with blue background!)
Paolo Montanelli, 20 March 2003

It is not the flag of Liga Veneta, but the flag of Eastern Lombardy ("Orobia"): in a project by Lega Nord (even if it's not the official political line of the party) the present Lombardy should be divided in two parts: "Insubria" (Western Lombardy) and "Orobia" (Eastern Lombardy).
Paolo Montanelli, 1 May 2003

The military pattern old Venetian Republic flag (with dark red border) is used by the Serenisima Republic, and now adopted by the Orobico autonomist but with the border changed to gold, and its devices to blue, and the central rectangle changed from dark red to blue according to <www.padaniacity.com>.
Jaume Olle', 2 May 2003

North League has a different flag for Eastern Lombardy (called Austrasia). So there is two movements claiming a region of Eastern Lombardy? (one Leghiste and other disident?). In my notes Orobia and Austrasia are two different entities: Orobia is Western Veneto, and Austrasia is Eastern Lombardy. Besides, it is not the flag of Liga Veneta, but the flag of Eastern Lombardy ("Orobia").
Jaume Olle', 13 May 2003

What's "Austrasia"? I know only a region called Austrasia about 1,500 years ago and it was not in Northern Italy but in present Central Germany (<www.wikipedia.org>). Even if I never heard about it, I've found some websites referring to Eastern Lombardy as "Austrasia". But they are very few. Instead, a lot of pages refers to Bergamo/Bèrghem as "capoluogo orobico", Eastern Lombardy as "terra orobica" and so on. Has anyone a description of this flag of "Austrasia"? Is it different from the "bandiera orobica" I located on the web?
Paolo Montanelli, 1 July 2003

The term Orobia never existed, so it is only an invention by North League; the "Orobi" were a pre-roman people that lived in the region of Bergamo, and "Orobie" is the name of the Alps between Bergamo, Lecco and Sondrio.
Fabio Facoetti, 1 July 2003

The Kingdom of Austrasia existed from 511 to 751 in the north-east of Gaul. Its territory covered Rhineland (now in Germany), Luxembourg, a part of Belgium and Lorraine (now in France). Its capital city was Metz, now in Lorraine. I Austrasia was a Merovingian kingdom, in struggle with Neustria, located more westwards. Pepin de Herstal (635-714), from Austrasia, defeated King of Neustrie Thierry III in 687 and unified Austrasia and Neustrie. His son and successor was Charles Martel, father of Pepin le Bref and grand-father of Charlemagne. Charlemagne later invaded the so-called Padania when he suppressed the Lombard kingdom, but I am not aware of any Austrasia he might have created in northern Italy.
Ivan Sache, 1 July 2003

Surely Paolo is right refering with Eastern Lombardy as Orobico (even if is also called Austrasia sometimes). There are several autonomist sensibilities in North Italy. For some, Bergamo was part of the Republic of Venice and is in West Veneto;
for others, Bergamo is yet in Lombardy. Who know what were the boundaries of the Celtic tribe that give name to the region? I dont know this and perhaps this is depending of the point of view. Italy has a lot of political parties, coalitions, minor movements, etc... and when is for autonomist groups the situation is complicate (very much complicate!). I asked Matte Colaone for a clasification of the autonomist movements: Leghiste, League allieds, autonomist out of League, regional italianist, etc... Dozens of flags were published in Flag Report, in several issues. He answered that the clasification will be issued in the next Flag Report, and it seems that this will shed some light on the panorama, but some specifics questions, like this one of Orobia, will remain pending.
Jaume Olle', 1 July 2003

In my opinion, the term "Orobia" never existed. I live 10 kms far from Bergamo, in the land that 2.000 years ago was inhabited by the "Orobi". This people was established in the actual Lombard provinces of Bergamo, Lecco, Como and Sondrio (in fact, the Alps of this region are called "Alpi Orobie"). The origin of Orobi is uncertain (it is not known if they were Celtic or Ligures), and we don't have many documents of their existence, like buildings or objects, because of their backwardness: their region were first occupied by the Etruscan, and then conquered by the Romans, about in 200 B.C., becoming part of the "Gallia Cisalpina" (Cisalpine Gaul). Roman occupation civilized these regions, with the building of roads and towns. As already said, we people of Bergamo don't have any cultural heritage of these tribes, because many people crossed our territories in the past (Longobard, Ostrogoth, German, Venetian...).
Austrasia is a historical region, completely unreleated to Bergamo and to Italy.
Fabio Facoetti, 2 July 2003

Austrasia was the name of the east lands of Frankish empire (opposite to Neustria). I believe that Austrasia mean "Eastern land" (from germanic ost, derived aust, like Austria) or so, and this is Eastern Lombardy.
Jaume Olle', 3 July 2003

I'm a linguistics student and I only used the term "Orobico" to describe the Eastern Lombardy dialect, which is quite different form that spoken in the western part of Lombardy. I found "Orobico" a much better term than "Bergamasco" (and much more better than "Austrasiano"... ), which is still the most frequent term in dialectology, because that linguistic area also includes Bresciano and Camuno. It's just a question of conventional names. For example, referring to Northern Italy dialects I use indifferently the words "dialetti gallo-italici" or "dialetti padani" (which do not comprehend neither Venetian nor, of course, Friulian and Ladin) without giving political support to any political party or secessionist project. I'm quite sure the word "Austrasia" has been never used referring to Bergamo and Brescia, either in past times or in recent times, either by sovereigns or by common people...
Paolo Montanelli, 4 July 2003

Austrasia mean the easter lands of any region. To relate current Austrasia with the Frankish kingdom that was known under this name is not the issue. Even if the genesis of the name is the same there is no relation neither simbolic or reivindicative.
Jaume Olle', 4 July 2003

Austrasia is the name of a kingdom whose existence is documented from 511 to 751. At the same time, there was a kingdom of Lombardia, whose eastern part has nothing to do with Austrasia. Wether Austrasia refers to the east or not is absolutely irrelevant in this case. Austrasia cannot be eastern Lombardia.
Ivan Sache, 4 July 2003

[Imperium]

Grazie mille, il tuo tempismo è ammirevole.
Grazie anche per l'articolo, anche se è in inglese, lingua che io odio con tutto il cuore.

[Jenainsubrica]

Stai già diventando etnonazionalista.

Non bisogna usare troppo nemmeno il latino però...

Usa WORDLINGO per la tradizione...oops pardon volevo dire...traduzione.


http://www.worldlingo.com/en/product...ranslator.html

[Jenainsubrica]

Qui c'è anche questa versione del vessillo della Lombardia Orientale,che presenta una forte omogeneità linguidtica.

E' mutuato dal ducale mantovano e dalla bandiera sopra linkata.

http://www.laliberacompagnia.org/

[Imperium]

Originally posted by Jenainsubrica
Stai già diventando etnonazionalista.

Non esageriamo, io sono semplicemente fiero delle mie origini bergamasche, tutto qua.

Comunque grazie per le varie informazioni!