Possibile Regio-jet made in Japan

[AZJumbo]

Japanese Subsidy Plan Backs Mitsubishi Large RJ

Jun 6, 2007

By Bradley Perrett/Aviation Daily

Embraer and Bombardier beware: Japan plans to allocate JPY40 billion (US$330 million) from next year to subsidize Mitsubishi Heavy Industries' proposed large regional jet, whose Boeing 787-based carbon-fiber construction and new engines could deliver dramatic ad- vances in efficiency.

The Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry plan for state funding, reported in Japanese media but not yet approved by the cabinet, greatly raises the chance that Mitsubishi Heavy will finally go ahead with the aircraft, which has been proposed in one form or another for at least five years.

Mitsubishi Heavy will decide next spring whether to launch the program, and the flow of state funding is scheduled to match that timetable. The money would be paid out over four years, beginning with the fiscal year that begins in April 2008. The aircraft is due to enter service immediately after that, in 2012, following an airframe development program costing JPY120 billion (US$1 billion), including the state money. Rolls-Royce or General Electric is expected to supply the engines.

Mitsubishi Heavy has said that the aircraft would appear in 70-seat and 90-seat versions with maximum takeoff weights of 38.3 metric tons (84,400 lbs.) and 42.1 tons (92,800 lbs.), respectively. Thrust would be 58 or 68 kilonewtons (13,000 or 14,900 lbs.), depending on the seat capacity.

An update of the specification is expected before the Paris Air Show opens on June 18, however, and the changes could be radical. The aircraft has already progressed from a 30-seat concept proposed in 2002, via an abandoned proposal to lean heavily on the design of the large and quite different P-X maritime patroller and C-X transporter that Kawasaki Heavy Industries is developing.

Those aircraft are primarily metal, but Mitsubishi Heavy's regional jet is expected to exploit the great advances in carbon-fiber construction that that company, Kawasaki Heavy and Fuji Heavy have developed for the Boeing 787.

For example, Kawasaki turns out one-piece carbon-fiber fuselage barrels with integral stringers, eliminating thousands of fasteners. Mitsubishi builds the 787's left and right wing boxes as single assemblies.

da aviation week



molto interessante, vanno a ficcarsi anche loro nella fascia 70-90 (dove lo ricordiamo, bombardier se passa al progetto C-series rischia di essere tagliata fuori a favore di embraer e il sukhoi, su cui ci sono a parer mio alcuni dubbi sui motori).
Molto interessante se avrà un seguito

[AZJumbo]

da businessweek
Japan Flying Ahead with Mitsubishi Jet
Japan is close to a go-ahead on an ambitious commercial regional jet project. Sure, it's risky and costly, but China is hot on its heels

by Kenji Hall


China isn't the only country in Asia with hopes of getting its commercial jet industry off the ground. While Beijing has made headlines this week with plans to build a jet by 2020, Japan's entry into the fray could come far sooner than that.

In the coming months, Japan's bureaucrats will decide whether to green-light their own national project for a 72- to 92-seat passenger jet. Mitsubishi Heavy Industries' executives say they have been signing preliminary deals with suppliers and showing blueprints of the MJ—short for Mitsubishi Jet—to carriers at air shows and during office visits. Built from lightweight carbon fiber, the MJ would be 20% more fuel-efficient than rival planes from China, Canada's Bombardier, and Brazil's Embraer, and it could be flying as early as 2012.

But the risks are huge, even for a country that produced the formidable World War II-era "Zero" fighter planes and has decades of experience supplying parts to the world's biggest aircraft and engine makers. That's because building a passenger plane involves more than design and assembly. Aircraft manufacturers rely on a worldwide sales staff to keep finicky airline operators happy, and must have an army of mechanics to keep the planes flying for decades. Says Wade Cornelius, vice-president of Boeing's (BA) commercial airplanes division: "For a company to be truly successful in the business they have to find a way to address all aspects of the customer's requirements."
Footing the Bill

Japan Inc. knows that better than most. Though engineering companies Mitsubishi Heavy, Kawasaki Heavy Industries, and Fuji Heavy Industries have landed a growing chunk of Boeing's business since the late 1970s, they have been wary of going it alone. Japan's first commercial plane venture—the 60-seat twin turboprop YS-11 in the 1960s—was a financial fiasco. That project lasted for less than a decade and resulted in mounting losses for the companies involved.

There's an even bigger obstacle: cost. Industry executives and analysts estimate that research and development alone will cost $1 billion. Getting a toehold in the fast-growing market for jets flying regional routes would probably run another $2 billion to $3 billion, they say. "It's still not clear how the costs will be split up," says Mitsubishi Heavy spokesman Kenichi Nakamura.

Translation: Unless the government foots part of the bill, the project is unlikely to move forward. Though some media reports have suggested that the government will pay for nearly a third of the costs, "It's still not certain whether there's enough political support for the project," says Credit Suisse (CS) analyst Teruhiko Nishimura.
Smaller Is Better

The planes wouldn't be 100% made-in-Japan. Mitsubishi Heavy, Kawasaki Heavy, and Fuji Heavy are expected to forge the MJ's carbon-fiber wings and fuselage in special kilns—the same now being used to make Boeing's new fuel-efficient 787 Dreamliner. Dozens of other Japanese suppliers would pitch in on everything from tires to toilets. But the MJ's fuel-sipping engines are expected to come from Rolls-Royce (RYCEY) and its avionics from Rockwell Collins (COL) or Honeywell International (HON).

From a business standpoint, building smaller planes makes sense. Single-aisle planes account for more than 70% of the market, according to consulting and research firm Frost & Sullivan. That's likely to remain the fastest-growing sector of the commercial jet market, analysts say.

The Japanese government estimates that carriers worldwide will add at least 2,000 small jets to their fleets from 2015 through 2035. Big orders could come from Japanese carriers ANA and JAL, which are likely to add regional jets to their fleets after an expansion at Tokyo's Haneda International Airport is finished around 2009.
Watching Beijing

To break even, Mitsubishi Heavy and its partners would have to sell at least 400 aircraft, company Chairman Takashi Nishioka recently told the Japanese financial daily Nikkei. The good news for them is that they wouldn't be jeopardizing their Boeing contracts. Airlines wouldn't be choosing between the MJ and Boeing's smallest plane, the 737, which has 110 to 215 seats. "They have chosen a size in the regional jet family. We don't view that as a direct competitor to our product line," says Boeing's Cornelius.

Of course, business considerations for the MJ could take a back seat, now that China has clarified its aerospace ambitions. Tokyo worries that Beijing's huge spending on a military and industrial buildup will soon close the economic and technological gap between the two. China may unwittingly have given the MJ's backers a huge boost.





Beh, fosse tutto in compositi avrebbe l'effetto del 787 sugli aerei "standard" della classe. Bombardier ed embraer sarebbero spazzati via in termini di consumi ed economie di esercizio; forse il sukhoi si salverebbe, visto che dovrebbe avere un parziale uso di compositi e che comunque il costo unitario è molto competitivo.

Secondo me, sbattendo fuori bombardier, c'è posto per questo regio made in japan!

[SQpps]

molto interessante, vanno a ficcarsi anche loro nella fascia 70-90 (dove lo ricordiamo, bombardier se passa al progetto C-series rischia di essere tagliata fuori a favore di embraer e il sukhoi, su cui ci sono a parer mio alcuni dubbi sui motori).
Molto interessante se avrà un seguito

azjumbo, quali sono i tuoi dubbi sui motori?

[Steman]

I motori dovrebbero essere una coproduzione Snecma/Perm.
Sicuramente unire motori nuovi a cellula nuova pone molti piu' rischi che non l'uso di un apparato propulsivo gia' conosciuto e collaudato.

Ciao

Stefano

[AZJumbo]

Oh finalmente qualcuno che commenta, noto scarso interesse industriale qua dentro!!


prova al banco per il SAM146
http://www.masterimage.fr/PowerJet/fett.htm



I dubbi sui motori nascono dallo stesso consorzio SNECMA-NPO saturn, con la prima che ha una notevole esperienza (oltre ai CFM e a tutti i motori militari, ha quote nel GE90 e nel GP7200 e nei CF6), e la seconda che di esperienza ne avrà sicuramente ma principalmente nel civile legata a progetti vecchiotti (il76 il62). Inoltre i motori russi sono da sempre considerati piuttosto assetati e più in generale, se il superjet ha scelto partner completamente occidentali, l'avere l'unica scelta di motori snecma-saturn mi sembra un problema.
La scelta della famiglia CF34 dell' EMB170, citata nell'articolo mitsubishi, mi sembra più furba; ormai le ultime generazione di turbofan hanno ottime prestazioni, meglio scegliere il CF34 con un aereo in compositi che non fare una cellula pesante e metterci un nuovo turbofan che più di tanto non può fare.

[AZJumbo]

Mitsubishi launches regional jet concept

Japan’s Mitsubishi Heavy Industries is showing off a full-scale mock-up of the cabin of its proposed Mitsubishi Regional Jet (MRJ). MHI has been working on the possible launch of a 70-90 seat regional jet as a project within the country’s New Energy and Industrial Development Organization (NEDO).


The concept calls for the aircraft to have an all-composite airframe, the first of its kind in the regional jet market. The ultimate aim of the effort is to build and test an aircraft incorporating the new control and material technologies developed during the project.


MHI has said it would like to launch the MRJ programme, with partners, next year with certification taking place as early as 2012. However it is under no illusions about what a tough task this could be. “Numerous challenges remain before the MRJ can be launched as a business leveraging the results of the NEDO R&D project,” it says. “These include not only the actual development, verification and confirmation of the requisite technologies, but also securing the necessary development funds.”
MHI is also a major partner on Boeing’s 787 Dreamliner programme, producing the composite wing box. In May it shipped the first wing box for the aircraft to the US. Boeing is preparing to roll out the 787 in July.




sempre da flightglobal, ovviamente.
Sembra sempre più vicino il lancio, anche se i costi di questi progetti sono altissimi. Anche il costo della produzione, se fatta in giappone, potrebbe far lievitare il prezzo d'acquisto fino a renderlo poco conveniente. Con tutti i suoi limiti, il sukhoi è comunque il più economico in circolazione (dovrebbe essere circa 3-4 milioni inferiore agli embraer, cioè circa il 12-15%).

[Steman]

Se i russi giocheranno bene le loro carte, magari coinvolgendo in maniera massiccia i partner occidentali, potrebbero effettivamente prendersi una bella fetta di mercato e spiazzare i concorrenti sul nascere.
Penso in particolare al progetto giapponese ma anche all' ARJ21 Cinese.
I giapponesi hanno tutto il know how necessario ma i loro tempi di realizzazione in ambito aeronautico sono lunghissimi e i loro programmi (come spesso accada anche nel resto d'occidente) sono soggetti ad aumenti vertiginosi dei costi.
Un esempio eclatante e' stato il Mitsubishi F2, che, nonostante sia un derivato dell'F-16, ha avuto tempi di sviluppo lunghissimi e costi esorbitanti.

Ciao

Stefano