Northerners vs. Southerners

[Der Wehrwolf]

ITALIANS


It is often claimed that Italians, especially those from the South of the country, have substantial Middle Eastern and African admixture acquired during Roman times and the Moorish occupation. However, data from anthropology shows a prehistoric origin for the Mediterranean elements in Italy, and detects no Negroid influence there whatsoever. Genetic research confirms this, showing that both sub-Saharan and Arab-Berber admixture are negligible. The differences between Northern and Southern Italians have also been greatly exaggerated for political reasons.


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Anthropology
Italy, one of the most clearly demarcated geographical units in Europe, is a country of considerable [sub]racial variability. Although the Mediterranean race is strongly represented in it, Italy belongs only partially to the Mediterranean world, for much of it is more typically Alpine racial territory. ... The primary racial impulse of the early Neolithic, however, is known. This was the immigration of small Mediterraneans in great numbers, coming largely if not entirely by sea; these first food-producers were followed by more competent navigators, Atlanto-Mediterraneans, who settled chiefly in the north and in the islands, and Dinarics from the eastern Mediterranean in search of metal. Some of the Dinarics penetrated the Alpine Valleys while others settled in the Po Valley and in central Italy. The movement of highly cultured peoples from the east into Italy continued into historic times, and included the settlement of the Etruscans in Tuscany, and of the Greeks in Sicily and in the southern end of the peninsula.

...through her role as mistress of the world, Rome accumulated and assimilated a heterogeneous population. That this population was by no means purely or even predominantly Mediterranean is shown by the study of the skulls of Pompeians, victims of the eruption which turned their city from a metropolis into a museum. These crania, with a mean cranial index of 80, represent a population which had acquired a [sub]racial character of its own despite its mixed origin, and in which the Alpine element was the most important. ... A series of 100 modern crania from Bologna, with a mean cranial index of 83.5, is almost purely Alpo-Dinaric, with the latter element in a position of prominence. The Dinaric race is common in northern, but not southern Italy, and this distinction has been true since the Bronze Age.

In other words, the southern Italians are a blend for the most part of Alpines and small Mediterraneans, while among the northern Italians the most important dolichocephalic strain is the Atlanto-Mediterranean. The association of relatively great blondism with brachycephaly merely indicates that both Alpines and Dinarics are characteristically mixed or intermediate in pigmentation. The few unaltered Nordics still found in northern Italy and in aristocratic families elsewhere are far outnumbered by Atlanto-Mediterraneans. ... The binding element which is common to all sections is the Alpine, which has reemerged from obscure beginnings through a superstructure composed of Dinaric, Nordic, and various kinds of Mediterranean accretions.
(Carleton S. Coon, The Races of Europe)




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Genetics

In a sample of 302 Italians from Tuscany, Rome, Sicily and Sardinia, 5 sub-Saharan mtDNA markers and 2 Asian-specific markers were detected. Note that most of these were found in Sardinians, who are a small, isolated population subject to genetic drift. Still, from these figures the non-Caucasoid maternal contribution to the Italian gene pool can be estimated at 2.3%, or ~1.2% total (0.8% African and 0.4% Asian).

(Richards et al., Am J Hum Genet, 2000)

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In a sample of 465 Sicilians from all over the island, 10 mtDNA haplogroup M sequences of presumable proto-Asian origin were detected, while only 3 sub-Saharan L sequences were found, bringing the total non-Caucasoid maternal admixture in Sicily to 2.8%, with just 0.65% of this being Negroid (Note that Richards et al. 1998 found white Britons to have 1% black mtDNA). To date, no sub-Saharan Y-chromosomes have been discovered in Sicily.

(Romano et al., Ann Hum Genet, 2003)


* * *
[I]n Italy...the frequency of [North African] U6 is much lower than in Iberia (one out of 411 individuals), and...none of the eight L sequences [=1.9% black mtDNA] has been found in NW Africa. Three Italian L sequences have been described throughout Africa, and the remaining five are not found in >1,000 sub-Saharan individuals. Thus, the presence of L sequences cannot be attributed to migration from NW Africa, and may instead represent gene flow from other sources, such as the Neolithic expansion or the Roman slave trade.

(Plaza et al., Ann Hum Genet, 2003)


* * *

In a sample of 524 Italians from all over the mainland, no sub-Saharan Y-chromosome markers were detected. Note that a previous study (Rosser et al. 2000) turned up a single African HG8 sequence, once again in Sardinia, which, in addition to the problem mentioned above, had an inadequately small sample of 10 (the 99 mainland Italians were HG8-free). Nonetheless, both of these results taken together give Italians a minuscule 0.16% African paternal admixture.

(Di Giacomo et al., Mol Phyl Evol, 2003)


* * *

Two subclades of North African Y-chromosome haplogroup E (labeled E-M81 and E-M78â) have been given an estimated age of ~5000 years, making them useful in detecting historical admixture from Berbers. These markers exist at combined frequencies of 1.5% in Northern Italians, 2.2% in Central Italians, 0% in Southern Italians, 1.4% in Sardinians and 1.4% in Sicilians, suggesting that gene flow from Carthaginian and Moorish colonists was minimal.

(Cruciani et al., Am J Hum Genet, 2004)


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Another Y-chromosome marker that may have been spread to Europe by Phoenicians and Arabs is the subclade of haplogroup J labeled J*(xJ2) or Eu10. It originated in the southern part of the Fertile Crescent and is very common in Arabia and Palestine (Neolithic Eu9 is from the northern Fertile Crescent). Its frequencies are 0.9% in Northern Italy, 7.1% in Central Italy and 5.3% in Southern Italy (for a total of between 0.5% and 3.6% admixture). It's important to note that while Phoenician and Arab colonists undoubtedly carried Eu10, its expansion is dated to ~9000-6400 YBP and generally attributed to Neolithic migrations (Nebel et al. 2001). Therefore, levels of recent admixture may be even lower.

(Di Giacomo et al., Mol Phyl Evol, 2003)


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An analysis of 10 autosomal allele frequencies in Southern Europeans (including Italians, Sicilians and Sardinians) and various Middle Eastern/North African populations revealed a "line of sharp genetic change [that] runs from Gibraltar to Lebanon," which has divided the Mediterranean into distinct northern and southern clusters since at least the Neolithic period. The authors conclude that "gene flow [across the sea] was more the exception than the rule," attributing this result to "a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture."

(Simoni et al., Hum Biol, 1999)







Italians share the same ancestry for the most part: Paleolithic, Neolithic and Italic with minor Germanic influences, and even smaller recent non-European ones. But there are two significant differences that account for most genetic as well as phenotypic variation between Northern and Southern Italy, and they have no connection to Roman times or subsequent events.


1) The North has an Ancient Celtic component, while the South has an Ancient Greek one:

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/ra...ltic_North.jpg


http://www.angeltowns.com/members/ra...reek_South.jpg

2) Neolithic Mediterranean ancestry is slightly higher in the South:

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/ra...c_Ancestry.jpg


Overall, however, physical differences are negligible:


TRAIT NORTH SOUTH
Hair Blondism 15% 6%*
Eye Blondism 65% 56%
Brunet Skin ~50% >50%
Average Height 168 cm 165 cm
Cephalic Index ** 83.5 79

* Varying degrees of rufosity were observed in an additional 16% of this sample.
** Above 81 is in the Alpine-Dinaric range, and below 76 in the Mediterranean range.



(Coon, The Races of Europe)


http://www.angeltowns.com/members/ra.../italians.html

[Der Wehrwolf]

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[Der Wehrwolf]

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[Der Wehrwolf]

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[Landser]

Ottimo thread!

[Der Wehrwolf]

Danke Landser!

[El Venexian]

tsk !

spiacente ma ci sono almeno altri 20 articoli su Y-STR , ABO , RH , mtDNA , etc che fanno molto meglio il punto della situazione
nord vs sud , sardi , toscani , terroni vs greci , terroni vs greci vs middle-east , e molto altro.

in primis lascerei perdere Coon perche' e' cosa del tutto obsoleta e alquanto mal vista per ovvie ragioni.

prendasi invece gli studi Mourant per i geni ABO , RH , MN , c/d/e , etc che sono tuttora usati da tutti anche se e' roba degli anni 80.

(... e gia' da questo si evince una linea maginot da Po in giu' )

inoltre mi sembra gravissimo non menzionare gli studi di barbujani (univ.Ferrara) su north vs south e sugli etruschi.

(btw , piaccia o meno i toscani sono nella migliore delle ipotesi dei mezzi terroni , come ho sempre sostenuto a spada tratta)


sui sardi poi finalmente viene fuori la verita' tramite studi un po' piu' decenti di quelli grezzi di pochi anni fa :

i sardi sono piu' terroni dei terroni !
che si sappia cazzo !

(tranne i sardi di origine genovese , ovviamente , ma sono pochi)

quanto ai terroni :

il grosso del genoma terrone e' stato ampiamente svelato , ora tocca ai futuri studi mirati sulle sacche montane e con donatori un po' piu' numerosi dei soliti 10/20 per citta' , cosi' che si scoprano del tutto gli altarini , specie sul fattore dei geni sub-sahariani
e semiti che e' cosa che si vede pure a occhio NUDO cazzo !!

il primo passo e' compiuto , ora viene il bello

[El Venexian]

dimenticavo :

lasciate stare il mtDNA che e' sempre piu' messo in dubbio ,
tutti oramai usano solo y-str che e' molto piu' preciso e affidabile.

comunque poi ogni 3 mesi esce una nuova teoria sulla diffusione neolitica ... non darei x scontato la solita bufala del crinale middle-east --> europa tramite l'agricoltura visto che molti studi lo stanno finalmente mettendo in dubbio e basilarmente tutta la leggenda si basa sul fatto che non sono stati trovati reperti tipo vanghe e zappe piu' antichi di quelli mediorientali.

anche perche' qui vige il dogma intoccabile della teoria out-of-africa tanto cara ai sinistri (e quasi il 100% dei ricercatori sono sinistrissimi !! vedasi le loro stesse home page personali e i loro schifosi articoli sul Manifesto o Repubblica a favore dell'antirazzismo..)

noi in quanto europei non possiamo che supportare la teoria multi-evolutiva , cioe' che in primis gli europei del neolitico erano autoctoni evoluti dall'erectus mentre i negri si sono sviluppati per i cazzi loro in africa , cosa provata da almeno 2-3 studi recenti sui geni afrikani.

tra l'altro e' recente lo stiudio che dimostra che le scimmie siano molto piu' diverse di quel che si pensava dall'uomo ...

d'altronde qui ogni 3 mesi esce roba nuova ad alta risoluzione che finalmente sputtana le vecchie tesi dogmatiche

diamo tempo al tempo , alla faccia dei coglioni multirazziali col dogma dell'1% di diversita' nella specie umana .. tie' !

comunque sia , se ora vi chiederete di che razza sono i padani la risposta e' che hanno per piu' della meta' un substrato neolitico , un quarto di substrato celtico , e il resto e' un mix di altri 5-6 substrati che cambia da zona a zona tra cui anche geni terroni etc (e li' vorrei sapere chi cazzo hanno analizzato ?? mAlanesi ??)

however , tutto e' abbastanza in linea col resto del centro europa (svizzera , baviera , tirolo , etc etc) , come volevasi dimostrare.

[Eomer]

Tutte cose interessanti, ma potresti citare fonti e pubblicazioni accessibili ai + ? Altrimenti dobbiamo fidarci dei tuoi post...
E poi cosa sono tutte quelle sigle criptiche ?

[Der Wehrwolf]

Attendo fiducioso che El Venexian posti le fonti da cui ha tratto i dati.